Wednesday, March 18, 2009

Christianity and Why I Focus on it

Aside from being the prevalent religion in my area of the world Christianity, of all the major world religions (exempting Islam, which is basically the same) has the most repugnant philosophies and doctrines regarding my fate and what I deserve. Let's go through the major religions and see what their doctrines say if I don't follow their "true" path.

Hinduism: If I fail, I get to come back and try again, perhaps as an animal so I can properly live my life true to my caste. Nothing terribly offensive there as far as punishment goes. It's clearly a condescending way of controlling the lower classes by placating them with promises of potential rewards in the next life, but not too bad taken simply as a doctrine.

Buddhism: Not overly concerned with hell or punishment. Although there are hells in the Buddhist cosmology, they seem (in my limited knowledge of Buddhism) to be more concerned with the homes of demons than about the punishment of human souls. And, of course, since Buddhism takes a page out of Hinduism's book as far as reincarnation goes, its far less offensive and threatening.

Judaism: Judaism of all religions actually has provisions for non-Jews to lead what would be considered a good Godly life through the Noahide laws. While I wouldn't qualify as B'nei Noah, its a far more generous idea than any othe monotheistic religion has. That said, if the Jews are right, I go to Sheol. Just like everyone else. One thing I cannot deny about Judaism is that their afterlife is pretty egalitarian unless you were the worst kind of person, whereas I believe you are simply rendered non-existent.

Islam: If I so much as do not believe in the tenets of Islam I will be tortured for all eternity in Jahannam.

Christianity: If I do not accept Jesus Christ as God, I will be punished and tortured in Hell for all eternity.


Now. Which of these sounds the worst? It doesn't take much to see why Christianity and Islam become the biggest targets for Atheists and Antitheists. They are the largest religions, as well as the most forceful, and they really think we deserve hell. For many Christians (little reservation from most muslims), there's significant cognitive dissonance there, and they have a hard time realizing that their ascribing to and supporting of that religion means they are advocating and supporting the eternal torture of the vast majority of the population.

They don't see it that way, of course, but if I support an oppressive government who tortures and murders its people, but I take no part in those acts, am I not tacitly supporting them? Same goes for religion. The only real difference is that the adherents of religion don't see the fruits of their belief until after they die (not that I believe in an afterlife personally). Out of sight out of mind I suppose.

12 comments:

  1. Buddhism, Judaism and most pagan faiths seem the kindest to nonbelievers.

    Hinduism's "hell" doesn't really bother me, in that the older I get, the more being a cow (or my dog) seems appealing.

    The joy with which Christians and Muslims wish me eternal doom is downright disturbing. Heck, one of the principal joys of the christian heaven is being able to see people in hell suffering eternal torment. Not friendly.

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  2. I believe that the enjoyment of watching the suffering was a postulation by Tertullian and not scriptural doctrine. Regardless, it has certainly been put forth a good many times.

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  3. You have really posited the most banal, reductionist and factually inaccurate depiction of heaven & hell I have seen to date.

    A couple of points.

    #1. We mortals here on earth can’t know who is going to Heaven or Hell with any certainty… only what properly constitutes sin…. And his forgiveness and grace cannot be weighed by mortals.

    #2. The sufferings of those in Hell is not “enjoyed” by those in Heaven but rather understood as necessary and just in the fabric of the spiritual universe. A loved one could go be in Hell and the same would apply.

    #3. God doesn’t condemn people to hell, people put themselves there. He tries to keep them out.

    #4. Your view of Hinduism is to forgiving. You can come back as a slug or a snake, and Nirvana can be perpetually unattainable. Its no soft vision - talk to a Hindu sometime.

    #5. There is all sorts of room in Christian theology for non-believers to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Read your Paul sometime and do a little research.

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  4. #1: Why do I need his forgiveness? If he created this mess, and knew what was going to happen down to the minute details, he is reponsible for it. If he is omniscient, then he knew who was going to "sin" and when. By this reasoning (sidestep to #3) he is not trying to stop anyone from sinning, because he already knows they whether they will or not. That's not justice.

    #2: I already addressed that this was put forth by Tertullian, and was not scripture. Whether it fits your view of your religion or not, it has been believed by a great many people. Rebmemeber, public executions have been viewed as popular entertainment even up to modern day.

    #3: Already replied, but I'll continue. If God didn't want people in hell he wouldn't have one. If he exists, and is both omnipotent and omniscient, he has no requirement for a zone of eternal punishment. Eternal punishment for temporal crimes (dubious crimes at that) is not any form of justice. The vanity and caprice of a mad deity is not a sufficient reason to obey someone i see no evidence of.

    #4: My view of Hinduism is limited by what I know. Either way, even if a final goal became unreachable that would not be consignment to unending tortures. Besides, what's wrong with a snake or snail? If that's what you are, that's what you are. A snail does not live its life wishing it were human. It lives its life to live its life, just as we do. it simply has a different goal and comprehension of it.

    #5: I've read the bible. Please tell me where it says people who don't believe in Jesus and live good lives are rewarded for it. Martin Luther and most Christian theologians would disagree.

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  5. (rough) answers

    #1. Free will - he could have created a perfect universe were nobody sinned but then we would be robots and not free people. Also - the fall,

    #2. The view of Tertullian is not incompatible with the "just & necessary" suffering of those in Hell. Think Hitler - ought we not rejoice in justice?

    #3. If you don’t believe, fine... But don’t think of Hell in the Dante sense exclusively. Theologically it is just a separation from God. And the Eternal part is very much in dispute...Its described as a crucible - burning away the impure (like refining gold) so only the purity of a mans sole enters the sight of God....see?

    #4. you may not have a problem with these images but my point was that within Hinduism they are considered very dreadful indeed. Coming back as a pig or criminal or lower cast. With each life a chance to either advance one notch or get thrown back 10. Not friendly stuff.

    #5.Romans 2 (12-17)

    " There is no partiality with God.
    All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
    For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified?
    For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
    They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
    on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

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  6. #1. Free will - he could have created a perfect universe were nobody sinned but then we would be robots and not free people. Also - the fall.

    -Clearly God had to know the fall would happen. He's omniscient right? So he knew it would happen. Why not just not create people? Or why not just create people who would love him? Free will is a tired excuse, and answers nothing.

    #2. The view of Tertullian is not incompatible with the "just & necessary" suffering of those in Hell. Think Hitler - ought we not rejoice in justice?

    -Eternal punishement for temporal crimes is not justice. Period. Oblivion is more just.

    #3. If you don’t believe, fine... But don’t think of Hell in the Dante sense exclusively. Theologically it is just a separation from God. And the Eternal part is very much in dispute...Its described as a crucible - burning away the impure (like refining gold) so only the purity of a mans sole enters the sight of God....see?

    -Your Jesus described Hell as a lake of fire. You're a Catholic, and based on your words you believe in purgatory. But based on Catholic theology (until very recently. When did God change his mind btw?)unbaptised babies went to limbo.

    Yes. The eternal nature of the punishment is subject to what denomination you believe in. But generally Catholics believe hell is Eternal. If it weren't there would be no purpose to purgatory. The people I deal with most often, fundamentalists, almost all believe that hell is eternal punishment.

    #4. you may not have a problem with these images but my point was that within Hinduism they are considered very dreadful indeed. Coming back as a pig or criminal or lower cast. With each life a chance to either advance one notch or get thrown back 10. Not friendly stuff.

    -Correct. I don't have a problem with these images. Every animal has its niche. It may be unpleasant from this perspective, but if I were to be reborn as a snail, or louse, or fish, i wouldn't remember who I once was. I would simply be. I don't see that as horrifying at all.

    Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Galatians 2:16 A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

    So. God is inconsistent, that's good to know. Of course the bible is often inconsistent, so its unsurprising you pick out the verses convenient to your argument. Regardless, the argument only serves to prove that God either can't decide, or people wrote this garbage out of their own heads.

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  7. Oh, look, it's an Opiner- spreading bad argumentation and poor logical reasoning across the internet like a dog rubbing its butt on the carpet.

    We're mere mortals, mere and mortal and mortal and mere. You can't possibly understand it, so don't even try! Just believe!! NOW!!1!!

    lulz!

    God TRIES to keep us out of hell? Yhwh is supposed to be ominipotent. If he wanted to keep us out of hell, he would. Plain and simple. That's what omnipotent means. If there is a god, he clearly wants some of us to burn for all eternity, or nobody would.

    Duh.

    btw, anybody see the slacktivist disprove hell using hitler? it was something.

    oh, and fritz? i dare you to pull this shit on the slacktivist's site. he likes teh gay if that's any motivation.

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  8. You definitely poked a soft spot on Fritzy, EC.

    I am A 35 year old Attorney from Michigan (around Detroit) I practice mostly probate & will contest, I am discerning a call to the priesthood (& considering the Jesuit order) I have an B.A. in philosophy and a J.D. I would describe myself as analytical & intellectually inclined.

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  9. So he's used to arguing. Argues professionally. And still can't form one that works. Color me shocked.

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  10. PersonalFailure & Eternal Critic - I dont know why PF thinks thats a soft spot. Defnding the Faith and theism is a pleasent diversion from defending marriage.


    Eternal Critic - I tried to answer your question back on the thread we were using...if your interested.

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  11. Why can't we have more of these semi-angry but peaceful debates instead of crusades and inquisitions? Just a thought.

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  12. I'm not interested in hating people or ripping into them nearly so much as I am in challenging presuppositions. I enjoy people like Hitchens who are acerbic and dripping with disdain, but also recognize that it doesn't make for a pleasant discussion.

    I would absolutely love it if more people came here and debated. I would also love if i had more original points, but we hone ourselves where and when we can.

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