So I got back into town last night. Overall it was a good trip, although I'm always made slightly uncomfortable around my family on the east coast. The whole lot of them are pretty devout in their religious beliefs, and this has always been a bit of a sticking point for me. A good number of them are Nazarene, a few are Mormon and all of them are Christian. Needless to say I was obligated to attend a church service in honor of my Great Grandmother which preceded her birthday celebration.
This wasn't too bad, it was a fairly traditional congregationalist church, meaning they weren't hardcore evangelicals. Just more regular protestants. The amount of Hymns always make me uncomfortable when im with my family because I simply do not sing them because I will not sing praises for something I do not believe. Even so, it doesn't stop some of them from wondering about me because I'm the only one in church not singing, and the only one who doesn't take communion, etc.
Only my immediate family knows about my faith or lack thereof, but its always on the odd side not being part of the group at a family function.
But, all that aside, at my great grandmother's birthday celebration at the tables they had little churches made out of the material from those stress squeeze-ball things. I'm putting up a picture as soon as I have one. Also, we picked up one extra that if someone wants it, I may give away at some point.
It's good to be back. I'm looking forward to more great discussions.
Showing posts with label Religion. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Religion. Show all posts
Tuesday, May 5, 2009
Wednesday, April 29, 2009
Religion as Child Abuse. My own thoughts
I wanted to discuss my opinion on this argument separate from my analysis of Hitchens' presentation of it in god is not Great. This is mostly because I think it deserves more space than being intertwined with my analysis. Hopefully I will be posting a review of that chapter tomorrow, but I was inspired to write this instead for today.
The argument that religion being put forth to children is child abuse, and I am very much of two minds about that position. Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion presented the argument in a way so as to demonstrate that there are no "Catholic Children," or "Marxist Children," and such trying to justify that religious indoctrination of children is immoral and abusive. I agree with this insofar as I think deep indoctrination of children into just about anything is wrongheaded and an affront to reason as it pushes the child in a prechosen direction before they have developed the reasoning skills to comprehend the enormity of the decision.
But then I also have to disagree. Indoctrination is a loaded word in this case, and is particularly poignant when applied to religion. That said, at some point we have to think about where can we draw a line at what values and beliefs parents can instill in their own children. While I, and no doubt many people reading this, view religion as a hostile and caustic influence in the world the parents of the religious children literally believe they giving them "truth" whatever that may be. The same goes for a parent instilling capitalistic values, or stoic values or, whatever values, beliefs, and opinions you may wish to look at.
Do we draw the line of abuse at obviously harmful values, like racism and bigotry? Or do we start dictating the majority status quo with the ability to decide what is abusive? Take it to the courts? But any of these options bothers me. I'm not currently a parent, but someday I intend to be; I would not want the government or some other external authority telling me I could not teach my own child from my own experiences and values. So i'm really at a loss here. We can't just limit it to religion since that's far too narrow, and hardly the only indoctrinating philosophy category available.
I personally think it to be impossible to not indoctrinate children, even unintentionally. If, as parents, one does not teach their child, the child won't learn anything. Its also natural that in any environment a young child will learn by adopting something from the actions, words, and habits of his or her parents. Children from different backgrounds will obviously develop differently in this respect, but we can't really expect every religious parent to stop all religious habits to protect their child and give him a free development without influence. Its not realistic, and its questionable whether it would be moral.
So, is religion child abuse? Possibly. But I personally don't see that there's anything that can be done to stop it as a whole without violating a thousand other rights, and that I'm not ok with.
The argument that religion being put forth to children is child abuse, and I am very much of two minds about that position. Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion presented the argument in a way so as to demonstrate that there are no "Catholic Children," or "Marxist Children," and such trying to justify that religious indoctrination of children is immoral and abusive. I agree with this insofar as I think deep indoctrination of children into just about anything is wrongheaded and an affront to reason as it pushes the child in a prechosen direction before they have developed the reasoning skills to comprehend the enormity of the decision.
But then I also have to disagree. Indoctrination is a loaded word in this case, and is particularly poignant when applied to religion. That said, at some point we have to think about where can we draw a line at what values and beliefs parents can instill in their own children. While I, and no doubt many people reading this, view religion as a hostile and caustic influence in the world the parents of the religious children literally believe they giving them "truth" whatever that may be. The same goes for a parent instilling capitalistic values, or stoic values or, whatever values, beliefs, and opinions you may wish to look at.
Do we draw the line of abuse at obviously harmful values, like racism and bigotry? Or do we start dictating the majority status quo with the ability to decide what is abusive? Take it to the courts? But any of these options bothers me. I'm not currently a parent, but someday I intend to be; I would not want the government or some other external authority telling me I could not teach my own child from my own experiences and values. So i'm really at a loss here. We can't just limit it to religion since that's far too narrow, and hardly the only indoctrinating philosophy category available.
I personally think it to be impossible to not indoctrinate children, even unintentionally. If, as parents, one does not teach their child, the child won't learn anything. Its also natural that in any environment a young child will learn by adopting something from the actions, words, and habits of his or her parents. Children from different backgrounds will obviously develop differently in this respect, but we can't really expect every religious parent to stop all religious habits to protect their child and give him a free development without influence. Its not realistic, and its questionable whether it would be moral.
So, is religion child abuse? Possibly. But I personally don't see that there's anything that can be done to stop it as a whole without violating a thousand other rights, and that I'm not ok with.
Friday, April 24, 2009
Archaeology, History, and the Bible
I apologize that I will not be citing sources here, but I am at work.
Fundamentalists have made some pretty fantastical claims about the historicity of the bible. They love to say things like, "Archaeology has never contradicted the bible," and "historically the bible is the most accurate book ever written," and plenty of other nonsense. But does it really hold up? Of course not.
Firstly, lets look at what the bible gets right, because there is a significant amount that it does do well. It is an excellent reference on the cultures of Israel and Judah, including their religious practices, their social customs, as well as their laws. Also, after the unification of Israel and Judah (reunification is as best I can tell ahistorical)it is a reasonably good history.
Archaeology has confirmed some of the history, including the existence of Jericho, the existance of Nebuchadrezar of Babylon, and other bits of information that we can confirm. There's even a possibility (if dubious) that two cities potentially analgous with Sodom and Gomorrah were discovered.
But what has never been proven? Well, lets start with anything supernatural. There is no real evidence other than legendary of even the existence of Moses or his supposed miracles, let alone any evidence of divine intercession at places like Jericho. Search as they might, archaeologists have found no proof of Solomon or David beyond the biblical legends, and have also shown that if Solomon was real his empire was greatly exaggerated in the biblical texts. Archaeology has also shown no evidence of inhabitation at oasis in the Sinai desert where the Israelites supposedly stayed for 40 years. If they were there, surely there would have been something left behind, but there are not even pot sherds. The history of egypt has never recorded the mass use of slaves, let alone any record of an entire nation of Jews enslaved. In the real world, egyptian monuments and great buildings were mostly public works projects as evinced by discovered workers' camps.
The problems in Genesis alone are innumerable for archaeology and historians alike. It is obvious to the historians who know that many of the legends of Genesis were cribbed off of earlier successful civilizations' mythologies, like the sumerians. This is particularly obvious in things like the ages of the patriarchs and the Sumerian kings, as well as the tower of Babel.
But what should we take from this?
Actually, its very telling. not so much saying that the bible is inaccurate, but it tells us that archaeology is confirming exactly what we should expect it would. The supernatural claims remain unsubstantiated, but the cultural cues and traditions, which the authors would have been very familiar with are relatively accurate. And this is of no surprise, yet fundamentalists treat this as if it were some amazing proof of the bible's accuracy. Its inevitable, when a book is written within a culture that those cultures specifics will be available. This is not proof. It is not even evidence. It is simply the way archaeology works.
I'll use an analogy.
If I were an explorer in India, and discovered an island off the coast (sri lanka) and went there, discovered that the cultural details and such conformed to what was written in the Ramayana. Should I then conclude that Ravana the demon lived on the island and that Rama went there to save his wife Sita from him? No, of course not. It means a text written within the context of a culture follows the norms of the culture, and the mores of the culture. It speaks nothing to supernatural claims whatsoever. This is not exceptional, this is expected.
Fundamentalists have made some pretty fantastical claims about the historicity of the bible. They love to say things like, "Archaeology has never contradicted the bible," and "historically the bible is the most accurate book ever written," and plenty of other nonsense. But does it really hold up? Of course not.
Firstly, lets look at what the bible gets right, because there is a significant amount that it does do well. It is an excellent reference on the cultures of Israel and Judah, including their religious practices, their social customs, as well as their laws. Also, after the unification of Israel and Judah (reunification is as best I can tell ahistorical)it is a reasonably good history.
Archaeology has confirmed some of the history, including the existence of Jericho, the existance of Nebuchadrezar of Babylon, and other bits of information that we can confirm. There's even a possibility (if dubious) that two cities potentially analgous with Sodom and Gomorrah were discovered.
But what has never been proven? Well, lets start with anything supernatural. There is no real evidence other than legendary of even the existence of Moses or his supposed miracles, let alone any evidence of divine intercession at places like Jericho. Search as they might, archaeologists have found no proof of Solomon or David beyond the biblical legends, and have also shown that if Solomon was real his empire was greatly exaggerated in the biblical texts. Archaeology has also shown no evidence of inhabitation at oasis in the Sinai desert where the Israelites supposedly stayed for 40 years. If they were there, surely there would have been something left behind, but there are not even pot sherds. The history of egypt has never recorded the mass use of slaves, let alone any record of an entire nation of Jews enslaved. In the real world, egyptian monuments and great buildings were mostly public works projects as evinced by discovered workers' camps.
The problems in Genesis alone are innumerable for archaeology and historians alike. It is obvious to the historians who know that many of the legends of Genesis were cribbed off of earlier successful civilizations' mythologies, like the sumerians. This is particularly obvious in things like the ages of the patriarchs and the Sumerian kings, as well as the tower of Babel.
But what should we take from this?
Actually, its very telling. not so much saying that the bible is inaccurate, but it tells us that archaeology is confirming exactly what we should expect it would. The supernatural claims remain unsubstantiated, but the cultural cues and traditions, which the authors would have been very familiar with are relatively accurate. And this is of no surprise, yet fundamentalists treat this as if it were some amazing proof of the bible's accuracy. Its inevitable, when a book is written within a culture that those cultures specifics will be available. This is not proof. It is not even evidence. It is simply the way archaeology works.
I'll use an analogy.
If I were an explorer in India, and discovered an island off the coast (sri lanka) and went there, discovered that the cultural details and such conformed to what was written in the Ramayana. Should I then conclude that Ravana the demon lived on the island and that Rama went there to save his wife Sita from him? No, of course not. It means a text written within the context of a culture follows the norms of the culture, and the mores of the culture. It speaks nothing to supernatural claims whatsoever. This is not exceptional, this is expected.
Wednesday, April 15, 2009
A Bit About Me
I realized when i wrote my reveiew of ginG chapter 11 that I pretty much never talk about who I am here, but I guess i probably should, to give everyone an idea of where I'm coming from when it comes to atheism and religion.
For the basics I was raised, as I have stated previously, in a Mormon household. That said, it was not terribly cultic as far as things go. While many of the doctrines were in force our family was overall pretty lax when it came to the prohibitions on caffeiene and such (alcohol was a huge no though). We were a convert family, so its not terribly odd that we were never really perfectly adapted to that lifestyle or the amount of indoctrination that some were.
Anyhow, it was an interesting way growing up. I can honestly say that for quite some time I actually believed pretty much everything that was said about Joseph Smith, the history of the church, and whatnot. It was ironically their intense teenage indoctrination program, which they call "seminary" that broke me of the spell. Seminary was basically 4 years of deep scriptural study with a preapproved church curriculum.
In addition to being a Mormon, I was also a history nut, and too many things in the Book of Mormon just didn't work. The main one that tipped me off was mention of Horses in the Americas B.C.E. From there it was just downhill, andby the time I turned 16 I didn't really believe in all the crap anymore, and shifted away into an agnostic/deist stance for awhile, and "came out" to my parents about my agnosticism the month before I turned 18. Going to university changed my perspective even more, and after a brief stint of disingenous paganism and pantheism I went full on Atheist. Having throughly researched history I'd realized that my pantheism was only half right; religions were all equal, they were just equally false.
From there I somewhat lost interest in religion until I picked up The God Delusion last November, and since then the entire subject of positive atheism and active, "out" atheism has drawn me in, and I've been going ever since. And now we're here.
I know, pretty dull stuff, but if anyone has any quesitons about mormonism or anything else up here, feel free to ask!
For the basics I was raised, as I have stated previously, in a Mormon household. That said, it was not terribly cultic as far as things go. While many of the doctrines were in force our family was overall pretty lax when it came to the prohibitions on caffeiene and such (alcohol was a huge no though). We were a convert family, so its not terribly odd that we were never really perfectly adapted to that lifestyle or the amount of indoctrination that some were.
Anyhow, it was an interesting way growing up. I can honestly say that for quite some time I actually believed pretty much everything that was said about Joseph Smith, the history of the church, and whatnot. It was ironically their intense teenage indoctrination program, which they call "seminary" that broke me of the spell. Seminary was basically 4 years of deep scriptural study with a preapproved church curriculum.
In addition to being a Mormon, I was also a history nut, and too many things in the Book of Mormon just didn't work. The main one that tipped me off was mention of Horses in the Americas B.C.E. From there it was just downhill, andby the time I turned 16 I didn't really believe in all the crap anymore, and shifted away into an agnostic/deist stance for awhile, and "came out" to my parents about my agnosticism the month before I turned 18. Going to university changed my perspective even more, and after a brief stint of disingenous paganism and pantheism I went full on Atheist. Having throughly researched history I'd realized that my pantheism was only half right; religions were all equal, they were just equally false.
From there I somewhat lost interest in religion until I picked up The God Delusion last November, and since then the entire subject of positive atheism and active, "out" atheism has drawn me in, and I've been going ever since. And now we're here.
I know, pretty dull stuff, but if anyone has any quesitons about mormonism or anything else up here, feel free to ask!
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