Everyone's already heard all about Darwinius Masillae the 47 million year old primate fossil. While I agree with scientists that the find is incredible, particularly in its age and completeness, I have to agree with PZ Myers on this one. Incredible as the find may be, its not a missing link, and there really aren't any missing links. We already know pretty clearly that evolution happened. Its obvious when looking at even partial evidence. This find doesn't make or break the ToE, it simply adds to the growing list of transitional forms that creationists pretend don't exist.
I've said it before, but I'm no scientist. I simply find this subject fascinating, mostly due to the denialism and the recalcitrant idiocy of the fundy camp. Frankly though, I get far too frustrated with "teh stoopid". I mean, working on these people and trying to get them to understand that their claims about science and whatnot are wrong and ludicrous is completely a waste of time. They don't understand because they don't want to. We make concessions regarding the fact that we don't claim to have absolute knowledge god doesn't exist etc, and they will always twist it around into a claim of something its not. The cognitive dissonance is so harsh it hurts. So, I'm not sure I'll be dealing directly with the tools on their own blogs anymore, but that doesn't mean I'm done here.
Showing posts with label Fundies. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Fundies. Show all posts
Thursday, May 21, 2009
Monday, May 11, 2009
100th Post: The Septuagint and Eternal Punishment
So, I'm already at my 100th post. Arbitrary marker, I know, But I decided I'd make this an interesting one. I want to discuss eternal punishment with you. Why eternal punishment? Because eternal punishment in hell is one of the most commonly used methods of intimidating people into believing the lies of evangelical christians.
The evangelical christians love the idea of eternal hell. It puts the impetus on a potential convert to either choose to believe or be potentially tortured forever. Its a great big initimidation con, and no doubt gets alot of weak converts from those who are afraid of that potential torture. That said, even so, I will set out to show that the idea of everlasting punishment is not only ridiculous as a doctrine, but completely unbiblical.
In this instance we should look at both the New and Old Testaments, but first the new. Yeshua, in those scriptures, which as best we can tell were initially published in Greek used the words Aionoios Kolasis to describe the eventual comeuppance of sinners and unbelievers. Now, while kolasis does equate to some kind of punishment for a crime or the rehabilitation, aionios is a bit trickier,a nd far more at odds with the fundies.
Aionios means "long enduring" based on all the greek sources that I can muster. It does not imply everlasting, and can be as short as a few years or a few centuries, but it is not eternal even in its implication. The term aionios is used dozens of times in the Septuagint (which Yeshua quoted from) in fact, and every single time it is in its meaning of "long enduring" not eternal. At least, not until you get to the New Testament where translators in the late Roman era and early middle ages decided that it meant eternal.
Highly conservative churches of course hate this idea, because it smacks of Origen's ideas about universal salvation, and of course, if you're going to be saved in the end regardless, alot of people aren't going to back the church, and the church's purpose of getting people to their salvation is completely shot, and many people would lose their purpose of living while not actually having to contribute productively. The very idea of universal salvation was very prevalent in early Christian communities, in fact, and even Augustine makes note of such doctrines and their popularity.
So, maybe I've misread something, but I cannot find anything to dispute this. Even if hell were to exist, I would not fear it because I would know it to be only for some time. Of course, as I don't believe in hell at all I fear it even less. But I highly recommend hitting fundies with that one every once in a while, as they really need a reality check, and watching them twitch in the throes of their cognitivie dissonance can be terribly amusing.
While I was researching all this I came upon a book called The Jerome Conspiracy which I recommend people check out. Its not a long read, and puts this all in a more comprehensive narrative. I actually wish I had come upon this source first, since most of my information is also therein.
The evangelical christians love the idea of eternal hell. It puts the impetus on a potential convert to either choose to believe or be potentially tortured forever. Its a great big initimidation con, and no doubt gets alot of weak converts from those who are afraid of that potential torture. That said, even so, I will set out to show that the idea of everlasting punishment is not only ridiculous as a doctrine, but completely unbiblical.
In this instance we should look at both the New and Old Testaments, but first the new. Yeshua, in those scriptures, which as best we can tell were initially published in Greek used the words Aionoios Kolasis to describe the eventual comeuppance of sinners and unbelievers. Now, while kolasis does equate to some kind of punishment for a crime or the rehabilitation, aionios is a bit trickier,a nd far more at odds with the fundies.
Aionios means "long enduring" based on all the greek sources that I can muster. It does not imply everlasting, and can be as short as a few years or a few centuries, but it is not eternal even in its implication. The term aionios is used dozens of times in the Septuagint (which Yeshua quoted from) in fact, and every single time it is in its meaning of "long enduring" not eternal. At least, not until you get to the New Testament where translators in the late Roman era and early middle ages decided that it meant eternal.
Highly conservative churches of course hate this idea, because it smacks of Origen's ideas about universal salvation, and of course, if you're going to be saved in the end regardless, alot of people aren't going to back the church, and the church's purpose of getting people to their salvation is completely shot, and many people would lose their purpose of living while not actually having to contribute productively. The very idea of universal salvation was very prevalent in early Christian communities, in fact, and even Augustine makes note of such doctrines and their popularity.
So, maybe I've misread something, but I cannot find anything to dispute this. Even if hell were to exist, I would not fear it because I would know it to be only for some time. Of course, as I don't believe in hell at all I fear it even less. But I highly recommend hitting fundies with that one every once in a while, as they really need a reality check, and watching them twitch in the throes of their cognitivie dissonance can be terribly amusing.
While I was researching all this I came upon a book called The Jerome Conspiracy which I recommend people check out. Its not a long read, and puts this all in a more comprehensive narrative. I actually wish I had come upon this source first, since most of my information is also therein.
Friday, May 8, 2009
Amusingly Sad
So, back in the very beginning of this blog I made a post regarding a particularly idiotic creationist moron. Apparently the genius that he is, Sye decided to make a covert post on there 2 months after I originally posted it. I don't check the archives for random comments terribly often, though every once in a while I find something. My nihilism discussion pulled in a troll that I never even noticed until this morning, and that was only a day after the post had slipped beyond my usual viewing.
But really, why would anyone bother posting 2 months later? I could easily have gone months without noticing that even peripherally. Frankly, Sye isn't really worth my time, but I replied anyway. I'm sure he'll be back.
But really, why would anyone bother posting 2 months later? I could easily have gone months without noticing that even peripherally. Frankly, Sye isn't really worth my time, but I replied anyway. I'm sure he'll be back.
Friday, April 24, 2009
Archaeology, History, and the Bible
I apologize that I will not be citing sources here, but I am at work.
Fundamentalists have made some pretty fantastical claims about the historicity of the bible. They love to say things like, "Archaeology has never contradicted the bible," and "historically the bible is the most accurate book ever written," and plenty of other nonsense. But does it really hold up? Of course not.
Firstly, lets look at what the bible gets right, because there is a significant amount that it does do well. It is an excellent reference on the cultures of Israel and Judah, including their religious practices, their social customs, as well as their laws. Also, after the unification of Israel and Judah (reunification is as best I can tell ahistorical)it is a reasonably good history.
Archaeology has confirmed some of the history, including the existence of Jericho, the existance of Nebuchadrezar of Babylon, and other bits of information that we can confirm. There's even a possibility (if dubious) that two cities potentially analgous with Sodom and Gomorrah were discovered.
But what has never been proven? Well, lets start with anything supernatural. There is no real evidence other than legendary of even the existence of Moses or his supposed miracles, let alone any evidence of divine intercession at places like Jericho. Search as they might, archaeologists have found no proof of Solomon or David beyond the biblical legends, and have also shown that if Solomon was real his empire was greatly exaggerated in the biblical texts. Archaeology has also shown no evidence of inhabitation at oasis in the Sinai desert where the Israelites supposedly stayed for 40 years. If they were there, surely there would have been something left behind, but there are not even pot sherds. The history of egypt has never recorded the mass use of slaves, let alone any record of an entire nation of Jews enslaved. In the real world, egyptian monuments and great buildings were mostly public works projects as evinced by discovered workers' camps.
The problems in Genesis alone are innumerable for archaeology and historians alike. It is obvious to the historians who know that many of the legends of Genesis were cribbed off of earlier successful civilizations' mythologies, like the sumerians. This is particularly obvious in things like the ages of the patriarchs and the Sumerian kings, as well as the tower of Babel.
But what should we take from this?
Actually, its very telling. not so much saying that the bible is inaccurate, but it tells us that archaeology is confirming exactly what we should expect it would. The supernatural claims remain unsubstantiated, but the cultural cues and traditions, which the authors would have been very familiar with are relatively accurate. And this is of no surprise, yet fundamentalists treat this as if it were some amazing proof of the bible's accuracy. Its inevitable, when a book is written within a culture that those cultures specifics will be available. This is not proof. It is not even evidence. It is simply the way archaeology works.
I'll use an analogy.
If I were an explorer in India, and discovered an island off the coast (sri lanka) and went there, discovered that the cultural details and such conformed to what was written in the Ramayana. Should I then conclude that Ravana the demon lived on the island and that Rama went there to save his wife Sita from him? No, of course not. It means a text written within the context of a culture follows the norms of the culture, and the mores of the culture. It speaks nothing to supernatural claims whatsoever. This is not exceptional, this is expected.
Fundamentalists have made some pretty fantastical claims about the historicity of the bible. They love to say things like, "Archaeology has never contradicted the bible," and "historically the bible is the most accurate book ever written," and plenty of other nonsense. But does it really hold up? Of course not.
Firstly, lets look at what the bible gets right, because there is a significant amount that it does do well. It is an excellent reference on the cultures of Israel and Judah, including their religious practices, their social customs, as well as their laws. Also, after the unification of Israel and Judah (reunification is as best I can tell ahistorical)it is a reasonably good history.
Archaeology has confirmed some of the history, including the existence of Jericho, the existance of Nebuchadrezar of Babylon, and other bits of information that we can confirm. There's even a possibility (if dubious) that two cities potentially analgous with Sodom and Gomorrah were discovered.
But what has never been proven? Well, lets start with anything supernatural. There is no real evidence other than legendary of even the existence of Moses or his supposed miracles, let alone any evidence of divine intercession at places like Jericho. Search as they might, archaeologists have found no proof of Solomon or David beyond the biblical legends, and have also shown that if Solomon was real his empire was greatly exaggerated in the biblical texts. Archaeology has also shown no evidence of inhabitation at oasis in the Sinai desert where the Israelites supposedly stayed for 40 years. If they were there, surely there would have been something left behind, but there are not even pot sherds. The history of egypt has never recorded the mass use of slaves, let alone any record of an entire nation of Jews enslaved. In the real world, egyptian monuments and great buildings were mostly public works projects as evinced by discovered workers' camps.
The problems in Genesis alone are innumerable for archaeology and historians alike. It is obvious to the historians who know that many of the legends of Genesis were cribbed off of earlier successful civilizations' mythologies, like the sumerians. This is particularly obvious in things like the ages of the patriarchs and the Sumerian kings, as well as the tower of Babel.
But what should we take from this?
Actually, its very telling. not so much saying that the bible is inaccurate, but it tells us that archaeology is confirming exactly what we should expect it would. The supernatural claims remain unsubstantiated, but the cultural cues and traditions, which the authors would have been very familiar with are relatively accurate. And this is of no surprise, yet fundamentalists treat this as if it were some amazing proof of the bible's accuracy. Its inevitable, when a book is written within a culture that those cultures specifics will be available. This is not proof. It is not even evidence. It is simply the way archaeology works.
I'll use an analogy.
If I were an explorer in India, and discovered an island off the coast (sri lanka) and went there, discovered that the cultural details and such conformed to what was written in the Ramayana. Should I then conclude that Ravana the demon lived on the island and that Rama went there to save his wife Sita from him? No, of course not. It means a text written within the context of a culture follows the norms of the culture, and the mores of the culture. It speaks nothing to supernatural claims whatsoever. This is not exceptional, this is expected.
Wednesday, April 22, 2009
In Reference to my Previous Post
If we really need an anti-religion acronym for Earth Day I recommend the following:
Eradicating
Any
Recognizable
Theocratic
Hegemony
I think its a lot more amusing that way.
Eradicating
Any
Recognizable
Theocratic
Hegemony
I think its a lot more amusing that way.
Absurdities in Genesis: Dominion Over the Slag Heap
Really? Seriously? Do you people have any concept of what Earth day is about? Well, let me educate you a little bit...We have one planet. Just one. Now, we have systematically since the beginning of the industrial revolution devastated the ecology of our planet, damaging, destroying, or making uninhabitable rivers, lakes, forests, plains, and just about any other ecosystem you can imagine. This disgusting lack of respect for the planet has led to mass deforestation and subsequent desertification.
Your "comic" here serves to illustrate a profound level of ignorance and complete arrogance. You think this is about your God? You, who in your anti-abortion furor claim to promote a "culture of life" are basically promoting the idea that environmentally sustainable living is an affront to your God regardless of how many will die to support your "culture of life". How utterly pompous and self-important.
Let's break it down a bit...
You say that Earth day promotes:
We exist because of the earth: This is undeniable. As stated previously, we have one planet on which to live at our current level of technology. If you can think of somewhere else we can currently exist, give me a call.
The earth is our mother: This is mostly metaphorical, and is, when used literally a bit of a pagan thing. But generally Earth day is populist, not religious.
Celebrate the Earth: Why not? Its where our crops come from, it feeds the animals that we eat in turn... Oh that's right. It doesn't explicitly mention YOUR god. Well, it doesn't explicitly remove your god from the equation either. Whether you believe god gave dominion over the Earth to you or not, if you don't take care of it, its not going to last.
Love the Earth: See above.
Why does it always have to be about your religion? If you stop and think about it for two seconds maybe you'd look less idiotic, but that might be asking a bit much. If you think Earth Day has anything at all to do with your religion positive or negative, you need more of a reality check than even the average YEC wingnut.
Friday, April 17, 2009
To ExpatMatt
Remember this guy? You really pissed him off. Must be the thinnest skinned evangelical I've ever seen on teh intarwebz
Tuesday, April 14, 2009
The Pirates of Penz... err Somalia
I'm sure we're all fairly well aware of these guys by now, but I feel the need to explain something because I've been hearing this shit on right wing wacko radio for the past week almost.
Pirates are not terrorists.
Yeah, they're unsavory, they do terrible things to people, steal cargo, ships and pretty much do whatever they want, but that doesn't make them terrorists, and here's why: they aren't motivated by intimidation, but by profit. Islamofascist terrorists are motivated by intimidation, religious furor, and often martyrdom. So a terrorist wants to fuck you up to cow us, a pirate wants to fuck you up because you have shit he wants. That said, a pirate sure as hell plans on walking away from his job with his ill gotten gain, a terrorist may or may not.
People need to get this through their skulls, because labelling every enemy who is not an official nation a terrorist is both foolish and inaccurate. Now, I have no problem with having similar policies for dealing with pirates as terrorists, but in all seriousness you aren't going to see a pirate come over and suicide bomb a school. By labelling pirates terrorists we are assigning to them an ideology and objective they most likely do not subscribe to.
Oh wait, that's right. I'm talking about right wingers. Good luck on getting through their thick skulls
Pirates are not terrorists.
Yeah, they're unsavory, they do terrible things to people, steal cargo, ships and pretty much do whatever they want, but that doesn't make them terrorists, and here's why: they aren't motivated by intimidation, but by profit. Islamofascist terrorists are motivated by intimidation, religious furor, and often martyrdom. So a terrorist wants to fuck you up to cow us, a pirate wants to fuck you up because you have shit he wants. That said, a pirate sure as hell plans on walking away from his job with his ill gotten gain, a terrorist may or may not.
People need to get this through their skulls, because labelling every enemy who is not an official nation a terrorist is both foolish and inaccurate. Now, I have no problem with having similar policies for dealing with pirates as terrorists, but in all seriousness you aren't going to see a pirate come over and suicide bomb a school. By labelling pirates terrorists we are assigning to them an ideology and objective they most likely do not subscribe to.
Oh wait, that's right. I'm talking about right wingers. Good luck on getting through their thick skulls
Friday, April 10, 2009
The Sincerest Form of Flattery
Apparently this has been around for a couple of years, but is new to me. Seriously though. Couldn't think of anything more original? Its pretty much an exact imitation of the Atheist Out Campaign. It smacks of despair, and a lack of creativity. And lets be honest, the Out Campaign really isn't that "creative" to begin with, but at least it was the original.
Like being an "out" Christian is an oddity anywhere in the English speaking world to begin with.
Like being an "out" Christian is an oddity anywhere in the English speaking world to begin with.
Wednesday, April 8, 2009
Glad Nobody Considers them a Real News Source
And here I thought Worldnet Daily was already scraping the bottom of the barrel for their contributors what with Chuck Norris and all. Those guys sure proved me wrong.
As a completely silly aside: The picture of Savage on that article makes me think he's going to be begging me for change on the street.
As a completely silly aside: The picture of Savage on that article makes me think he's going to be begging me for change on the street.
Tuesday, April 7, 2009
Playing With Matches Around a Straw Man
Ok... what part of this is satire, and not just blatantly idiotic?It lacks understanding of the scientific method and how peer review works. Satire exposes something and is either ironic or sarcastic. This is just sarcastic hyperbole.
I found a dinosaur bone. After long hours of analysis, fact checking, and reading my bible I came up with some fascinating conclusions!
Firstly, of course, I wanted to date the bones to find out how old the fossils I was dealing with are. Well, I ran some tests, and wow, guess what? The dating method said the fossils were at least 65 million years old. But then i thought to myself, no way. That's not possible. The earth is only 6 thousand years old, so I revised the dates, and decided there must have been something in the great flood that caused the apparent age to be much greater. So with estimates modified, i found the fossil was still amazingly about 5800 years old! Fantastic, its almost as old as the Garden of Eden!
Secondly, I examined the DNA of the fossil to analyze it further and found that it had DNA remarkably similar to our own! Clear proof that God designed all his creatures from a similar base. That makes total sense. So much more than common descent!
Finally, looking at the bones i couldn't determine a cause of death. I found this perplexing, but then realized it must have died in the flood. How fortuitous to find such amazing proof of the deluge. Why else would it be bured like that? No possible way could it have been because of thousands of years of sediment and tectonics andbuilding layers on layers. That's absurd.
Also, please note that this is all completely reliable because it fits within biblical interpretations of reality. I even got it posted on AiG! Also, don't worry. If any parts of the bible are contradictory its ok, because God is infallible and there has to be a reasonable explanation why it doesn't fit with actual history.
Wow. Isn't building straw men fun?
Seriously? You think we believe that scientific journals are 100% accurate all the time? Hate to break it to you, but we all know very well that science makes mistakes. So let's try this from the reverse perspective, simply because I think we know which case is stronger."Please note that this evidence is conclusive because it is going to be published in a scientific journal which is always 100% accurate."
I found a dinosaur bone. After long hours of analysis, fact checking, and reading my bible I came up with some fascinating conclusions!
Firstly, of course, I wanted to date the bones to find out how old the fossils I was dealing with are. Well, I ran some tests, and wow, guess what? The dating method said the fossils were at least 65 million years old. But then i thought to myself, no way. That's not possible. The earth is only 6 thousand years old, so I revised the dates, and decided there must have been something in the great flood that caused the apparent age to be much greater. So with estimates modified, i found the fossil was still amazingly about 5800 years old! Fantastic, its almost as old as the Garden of Eden!
Secondly, I examined the DNA of the fossil to analyze it further and found that it had DNA remarkably similar to our own! Clear proof that God designed all his creatures from a similar base. That makes total sense. So much more than common descent!
Finally, looking at the bones i couldn't determine a cause of death. I found this perplexing, but then realized it must have died in the flood. How fortuitous to find such amazing proof of the deluge. Why else would it be bured like that? No possible way could it have been because of thousands of years of sediment and tectonics andbuilding layers on layers. That's absurd.
Also, please note that this is all completely reliable because it fits within biblical interpretations of reality. I even got it posted on AiG! Also, don't worry. If any parts of the bible are contradictory its ok, because God is infallible and there has to be a reasonable explanation why it doesn't fit with actual history.
Wow. Isn't building straw men fun?
Monday, April 6, 2009
Should Have Said Earlier
Anyone interested in continuing where I left off and lambasting the moron, his rather rarely used blog can be found here. I don't expect many if any will take it up, since he's just a really smalltime Comfort Clone, but hey, if you want to slam against a brick wall, be my guest!
Sunday, April 5, 2009
A discussion I've been having...
Complete tool posts:
I reasonably reply countering the standard absurdities of Pascal's wager:
He irrelevantly retorts:
I reply once again:
He once again replies, hypocritcally this time, sure to point out that he is not a hypocrite despite the obvious hypocrisy of claiming Pascal's wager is gold for Christians but BS for Muslims:
Finally I give up, since this guy is clearly an idiot lacking any ability to reason.
If God really does exist and He created hell as home for sinners, then can you afford to be wrong about whether or not you will end up there? If one person believes in God and that He created hell as a home for sinners and is therefore terrified over the possibility of ending up there, and another person does not believe in God or hell and therefore lives comfortably, how can you tell which one is correct? Can you afford to be wrong? If God does exist and created hell as the destination for sinners, then not believing in Him or in hell has absolutely no effect on their existence. What if you are wrong? If a Christian is wrong, then they are wrong for their lifetime but if an atheist is wrong, then they are wrong for eternity. Are you willing to make that gamble? Are you willing to challenge the Creator of the Universe? Is it easier to believe that nothing created everything or that creation must have had a creator? You know that your house exists, it is a building and must have had a builder. Perhaps you were that builder. You know that the cars on the road exist, they too had a creator, Ford/Chevy/Dodge/Honda/etc. You know that sun exists, you can feel its warmth and see its light every day, it too was created. So is it really so hard to believe that God created everything? You know the answer.
I reasonably reply countering the standard absurdities of Pascal's wager:
Pascal's wager has never been a good case.
First of all, you have narrowed things down to only two possibilities ignoring all others. This is what is known as a false dilemma. What if the muslims are right? A muslim could present the exact same argument to you and you would think it absurd, would you not? But according to them you would be going to hell. Can you really afford that risk? Of course you can.
And this could go for any religion. Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Norse traditional, Roman pantheistic. In the end why is it your deity, of all those that have ever been created by man that would have to be right? WE skeptics and atheists believe that because there is no good evidence of deity, let alone the identity of which if any exist, why should we worship or follow any? If it is a just God then infinite punishment for temporal crimes is not reasonable, which makes an eternal Hell that much less believeable.
I have listened to and read many apologetics, but Pascal's wager is extremely weak. I would recommend building a foundation on something much more substantial than threat and intimidation, which believe it or not is exactly what the threat of hell is.
He irrelevantly retorts:
The "threat" of hell is a warning, much like road signs, it is meant to keep you from harm. I can think of no greater harm then to spend eternity seperated from all that is good. You can choose to ignore the warning signs and continue on your way, but sooner or later it will be too late and you fall off the cliff. So my question remains. How long are you willing to ignore the warnings? There was a man once who, during a massive flood, climbed up on his roof and decided to wait for a God to rescue him. After a short while, a boat came by and the occupants asked the man to come and join them and be safe from the flood. The man refused, saying that he was trusting God to save him and they went on by. After some more time passed, and the water has raised even higher, another boat happened by and again the occupants urged the man to join them and escape the flood. Again the man refused, insisting that God would save him. By now the water was almost over the roof and the man was getting nervous. Suddenly a helicopter came along but the man still refused to be rescued because he thought he would know when God would save him and a short time later, the man drowned. When he stood before the Lord, he asked, why did you not come and save me? The Lord answered, I sent you two boats and a helicopter, why did you not trust Me?
Eternal Critic said: If a muslim presented the same argument to you, you think it absurd would you not? and If it is a just God, then eternal punishment for temporal crimes is not reasonable which makes an eternal hell that much less believable.
First off, I would be completely contradicting my faith and message if I agreed with you and I do not agree. The message itself is valid and powerful no matter who presents it. Even for muslims, it is those who do not honor and worship God who are the infidels bound for hell. They honor and respect Christians and Jews, at least those who trully follow the Qu'ran and not the extremists who pervert it. My beliefs may differ slightly but I will still be going to heaven because I trust in and follow God.
Secondly, it is exactly because God is holy and just that He must punish sin and make no differenciation of it. Sin is sin and it must be punished. If you go before a judge, convicted of a crime and you say to the judge, jusdge, I know I have been found guilty but since you are a good and fair judge, I believe you should let me go, being that you are so good and fair. What do you suppose that judge would say to you? They might give a slight chuckle but they would likely say, "because I am a good and fair judge, I cannot let you go free. I must see that justice is served and if I let you go free it would show me to be corrupt." And that is based on our standards. God holds much higher standards than that because He is perfectly Holy and Just. You can claim that His ways are unfair and unreasonable all you want but it makes no difference. We are without excuse and will all have to face Him on judgment day, where He will test even our thoughts and seperate the goats from the lambs.
I reply once again:
You actually completely ignored the important part of the question. If a Muslim presented you with the argument: "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammed is his prophet. If you do not accept this and follow the tenets of Islam and submit to Allah's will you will be damned for eternity in Jahannam. If you do accept this you could spend all eternity in a heavenly paradise. What have you got to lose? If you choose not to believe, and are right, you lose nothing, but if wrong you lose everything! If you believe in Allah and his prophet and are wrong you lose nothing, but if you are right gain everything.
This is the exact same argument put from a Muslim's perspective. And because I know you won't accept that argument, why do you think someone should accept yours other than because that's what -you- believe? I'm not sure who taught you about Islam, but there is no ambiguity in Islam that you would be going to hell for not being a believer.
As for your claims of fair judgement you again avoid the actual question. How does one make eternal judgement on temporal crimes? If I stole a tee-shirt (random example) I would be punished based on the severity of the crime. If I steal a car, my punishment will be summarily more severe. Why would it be just to jusge a petty thief the same for all eternity as (forgive my Godwin) Hitler. Or, that being switched around, why should a great philanthropist who has contributed to the benefit of mankind and done many good works and little wrong (nobody being perfect) be punished for all time solely on not believing in something he has no good evidence for while a serial murderer in prison for multiple life sentences should be saved on the basis of one single belief in an ephemeral, unproven concept. If that's justice, any crime should be a capital crime punishable by execution.
He once again replies, hypocritcally this time, sure to point out that he is not a hypocrite despite the obvious hypocrisy of claiming Pascal's wager is gold for Christians but BS for Muslims:
In regards to Eternal Critic's comments: That is not what you said originally since you mentioned nothing of Allah or Muhammad which actually was not the basis of my original post to begin with. I will reitterate that if I rejected my argument because someone else made it, I would be a hypocrit and my argument invalid. But you are right in that I would not accept the argument as you presented it. As for your argument about fair judgment I would remind you to stop insisting on your own ideas about is fair. Sin is sin and has no place in the presence of God. HE does not tolerate sin no matter how small WE think it is, and no matter how unjust WE feel HE is. He is Holy and just and will punish ALL sin. As humans, we make our own judgments about making the punishment fit the crime but WE ARE NOT GOD!! He also gave us a precious free gift in that Christ died to take our punishment for us so that we would not have to spend eternity in hell seperated from HIM! This is GRACE and it is given to us by FAITH through CHRIST alone and not by works that any may boast but a free gift from God.
Think of it this way, if I am convicted of murdering someone for instance. The evidence is irrefutable and the case has been tried and I am found guilty. I know that I am guilty and so did the jury. The judge asks me if I have any last words before he passes my sentance. In a last ditch effect to appeal to his goodness, I say "judge, I know you to be a good and fair judge and I believe that because of that you should let me go since I have learned my lesson and it will never happen again. You are so good and fair so I think you will agree that I should be allowed to go free as this would show how good and fair you are. How do think that judge would respond? They would probably laugh at such audacity and then make it perfectly clear that it is because they are good and fair that they must see justice served. They would be corrupt if they let anyone go unpunished if they were guilty. The world seems to think that God is TOO GOOD to punish them for their sins but is exactly this,God's goodness, that will condemn them. Sin must be punished and the punishment is seperation in hell for eternity. Apart from trusting and following Christ as savior there is no escaping that punishment. But since Christ became that punishment for us and defeated death, we can go free in Him for He loved us so much.
Finally I give up, since this guy is clearly an idiot lacking any ability to reason.
Friday, April 3, 2009
Presuppositionalist Arguments
How do people deal with these kinds of arguments for God? I know the arguments are ridiculous because they make far too many assumptions about the necessity of deity, but how does one get that through the thick skull of a presuppositionalist? Or is it better to just ignore them?
Tuesday, March 31, 2009
Christian Radio, and Why I Listen to it
In the mornings I fairly regularly listen to my local Christian radio station. Now, this may seem somewhat masochistic of me, and at times it -is- terribly painful to do. That said I have found that it can be an incredibly valuable resource when learning about how they actually think.
Apologists are their own thing. They, mostly, train themselves to fight a completely irrational battle and try to use reason. They really do. Whether it seems that way to us skeptics and non-believers is open to debate, and certainly the individual in question, but by and large the arguments they use can be very persuasive to those who do not have a strong opinion, or are not well educated on the subject at hand.
Regular fundies on the radio are another thing altogether. These guys don't know good arguments, are almost all completely based in the take it one faith camp, and most were raised in their church and have it so deeply ingrained in them that they are implacable. And this makes for some much more interesting listening. I've heard a million apologists, but these guys say what they actually think, and some of the vomit they spew is so laughable as to be very convincing of Dawkins' allegation of delusion.
Take this morning for example. After a mass-broadcast of some Alistair Begg drivel this morning the local announcer made note that (paraphrasing) "We know Jesus was the christ because of the people he touched." I think about that, and the obvious problems are innumerable. What about Muhammed? Or Siddhartha? Both of them touched thousands and their religions have explanded to gross proportions. Wouldn't that make them true?
Clearly this is an example of preaching to the choir, but it is ubiquitous on the Christian radio stations. And people listen to this, and eat it up. They actually discuss things like the "academic freedom" they want in our public schools, and how we live in a Christian nation. They actually believe that what they call the traditional (nuclear) family is not something that's existed in practicality for only roughly a century.
It is more than a bit disturbing, and I encourage others to listen, just to see what they say. Because apologists, Ray Comfort exempted, are generally not condescending, or outright contemptuous towards their opponents, but the rank and file have no such filter, and very little restraint.
Apologists are their own thing. They, mostly, train themselves to fight a completely irrational battle and try to use reason. They really do. Whether it seems that way to us skeptics and non-believers is open to debate, and certainly the individual in question, but by and large the arguments they use can be very persuasive to those who do not have a strong opinion, or are not well educated on the subject at hand.
Regular fundies on the radio are another thing altogether. These guys don't know good arguments, are almost all completely based in the take it one faith camp, and most were raised in their church and have it so deeply ingrained in them that they are implacable. And this makes for some much more interesting listening. I've heard a million apologists, but these guys say what they actually think, and some of the vomit they spew is so laughable as to be very convincing of Dawkins' allegation of delusion.
Take this morning for example. After a mass-broadcast of some Alistair Begg drivel this morning the local announcer made note that (paraphrasing) "We know Jesus was the christ because of the people he touched." I think about that, and the obvious problems are innumerable. What about Muhammed? Or Siddhartha? Both of them touched thousands and their religions have explanded to gross proportions. Wouldn't that make them true?
Clearly this is an example of preaching to the choir, but it is ubiquitous on the Christian radio stations. And people listen to this, and eat it up. They actually discuss things like the "academic freedom" they want in our public schools, and how we live in a Christian nation. They actually believe that what they call the traditional (nuclear) family is not something that's existed in practicality for only roughly a century.
It is more than a bit disturbing, and I encourage others to listen, just to see what they say. Because apologists, Ray Comfort exempted, are generally not condescending, or outright contemptuous towards their opponents, but the rank and file have no such filter, and very little restraint.
The Fine Tuning Argument
I was over reading Debunking Christianity and came across this particular post.
Generally speaking I like John Loftus. I think he has a lot of good points to make, and his position as a former apologist makes him an ideal candidate for making credible and pointed arguments against the Christian faith. That said I'm not sure why he posted this article, and even less sure why he thinks it makes for good apologetics, let alone sets a standard. All of the listed arguments are fairly standard, commonly debunked or irrelevant, but the one that bugs me most is the fine tuning of the universe argument.
This is a tired argument to most atheists, but it goes basically like this: Any number of factors in our universe are so specific that if they were changed even slightly human life could not exist. This is extremely simplified, but I'm sure you get the gist. Through this reasoning they foolishly assume this means that the universe was designed for human life.
Now, think about that for a minute and you'll surely see what's wrong with that assumption. The base of the assumption itself already assumes creation. By extension of its assumption that the universe was designed for human life, it automatically assumes that humans must have been designed as well. Even beyond that, assuming the environment was designed for the creature as opposed to the creature arising due to its environment is like saying legs were designed to fit pants instead of the opposite. A complete absurdity.
Fine tuning, in my estimation is one of the last refuges of a failing philosophy.
Generally speaking I like John Loftus. I think he has a lot of good points to make, and his position as a former apologist makes him an ideal candidate for making credible and pointed arguments against the Christian faith. That said I'm not sure why he posted this article, and even less sure why he thinks it makes for good apologetics, let alone sets a standard. All of the listed arguments are fairly standard, commonly debunked or irrelevant, but the one that bugs me most is the fine tuning of the universe argument.
This is a tired argument to most atheists, but it goes basically like this: Any number of factors in our universe are so specific that if they were changed even slightly human life could not exist. This is extremely simplified, but I'm sure you get the gist. Through this reasoning they foolishly assume this means that the universe was designed for human life.
Now, think about that for a minute and you'll surely see what's wrong with that assumption. The base of the assumption itself already assumes creation. By extension of its assumption that the universe was designed for human life, it automatically assumes that humans must have been designed as well. Even beyond that, assuming the environment was designed for the creature as opposed to the creature arising due to its environment is like saying legs were designed to fit pants instead of the opposite. A complete absurdity.
Fine tuning, in my estimation is one of the last refuges of a failing philosophy.
Monday, March 23, 2009
The Constitution Doesn't Apply to Richard Dawkins?
Remember, if you're an Atheist and in the bible belt, you may potentially have your right of free speech attacked. By your legislature.
I consistently love just how the crazy creationists are all about "academic freedom" when it comes to crazy ideas like ID, but as soon as it's a vocal, unabashed atheist doing it for evolution and natural selection, suddenly its worthy of wasting government funds in a time of recession to investigate Dawkins, who just happens to have waived his speaking fee for the engagement.
Could it be more asinine? They'll likely waste more money in man hours investigating this than Dawkins' original fee would have been had he actually taken payment. I've no doubt these tools wouldn't lift a finger if William Dembski were speaking, despite his complete incompetence.
My conclusion? They're scared. They are terrified of the change in attitudes in this country towards secularism, and terrified that atheists are not only becoming far more visible in society... but people now listen to them. We're still far from the majority, but this is a minor thing. Atheists have continually become a larger and larger sect of the vocal influential population, particularly in the sciences, and people who don't really understand the science being intolerant of its implications.
As if it wasn't bad enough that Oklahoma legislators tried to issue a verbal condemnation against Dawkins, this is just embarrassing. I'm glad I only live in Texas where they only fire teachers for being Atheists.
I consistently love just how the crazy creationists are all about "academic freedom" when it comes to crazy ideas like ID, but as soon as it's a vocal, unabashed atheist doing it for evolution and natural selection, suddenly its worthy of wasting government funds in a time of recession to investigate Dawkins, who just happens to have waived his speaking fee for the engagement.
Could it be more asinine? They'll likely waste more money in man hours investigating this than Dawkins' original fee would have been had he actually taken payment. I've no doubt these tools wouldn't lift a finger if William Dembski were speaking, despite his complete incompetence.
My conclusion? They're scared. They are terrified of the change in attitudes in this country towards secularism, and terrified that atheists are not only becoming far more visible in society... but people now listen to them. We're still far from the majority, but this is a minor thing. Atheists have continually become a larger and larger sect of the vocal influential population, particularly in the sciences, and people who don't really understand the science being intolerant of its implications.
As if it wasn't bad enough that Oklahoma legislators tried to issue a verbal condemnation against Dawkins, this is just embarrassing. I'm glad I only live in Texas where they only fire teachers for being Atheists.
Friday, March 20, 2009
Absurdities in Genesis:
This is a comic that is listed under "kids" at Answers in Genesis. This site is already infamous among pretty much everyone who does not believe in a literal biblical creation story, and even more in Atheist circles.
This is obviously a particularly flammable straw man representation of any atheist. No atheist who knows his subject would ever argue like this for various reasons I will only go into on this entry if asked. What I really wanted to note was the placement of bigotry in a section marked "kids."
Christians complain all the time that atheists mock their beliefs, misrepresent their arguments etc. This complaint is commonly mirrored from the atheist side, and for good reason both sides are often right here. This kind of misrepresentation though, is exactly why people like Richard Dawkins consider youth religious indoctrination to be child abuse. They are teaching through comics not only a bad argument, but by teaching this bad argument are encouraging the children who read it that Atheists are in fact stupid.
Now, I know we have our comics, and groups, and blogs targeting Christianity, and they almost invariably say we don't understand real Christianity, regardless of the fact that many of us do. The same goes in reverse again, but when you're advertising to children your preconceived bigotries there is a problem. How different is that from a comic saying, say, Christians eat babies, which was then given away in pamphlets to children at a muslim sponsored event? People would be outraged. It would be a scandal. Is it any wonder there is so much bad blood when we train our children from a young age to misrepresent another's position or think of some views as stupid for absurd reasons?
It is one thing for an adult to an audience of adults to reason out why their faith is right or wrong rationally (admittedly i have yet to find any rational explanation for theism), and another entirely to warp their minds in the formative stages. And this goes to both Theists and Atheists.
Let's let our children learn to reason and experience, and then decide for themselves. I have no delusion that this will change anyone's mind, but still, had to say it.
This is obviously a particularly flammable straw man representation of any atheist. No atheist who knows his subject would ever argue like this for various reasons I will only go into on this entry if asked. What I really wanted to note was the placement of bigotry in a section marked "kids."
Christians complain all the time that atheists mock their beliefs, misrepresent their arguments etc. This complaint is commonly mirrored from the atheist side, and for good reason both sides are often right here. This kind of misrepresentation though, is exactly why people like Richard Dawkins consider youth religious indoctrination to be child abuse. They are teaching through comics not only a bad argument, but by teaching this bad argument are encouraging the children who read it that Atheists are in fact stupid.
Now, I know we have our comics, and groups, and blogs targeting Christianity, and they almost invariably say we don't understand real Christianity, regardless of the fact that many of us do. The same goes in reverse again, but when you're advertising to children your preconceived bigotries there is a problem. How different is that from a comic saying, say, Christians eat babies, which was then given away in pamphlets to children at a muslim sponsored event? People would be outraged. It would be a scandal. Is it any wonder there is so much bad blood when we train our children from a young age to misrepresent another's position or think of some views as stupid for absurd reasons?
It is one thing for an adult to an audience of adults to reason out why their faith is right or wrong rationally (admittedly i have yet to find any rational explanation for theism), and another entirely to warp their minds in the formative stages. And this goes to both Theists and Atheists.
Let's let our children learn to reason and experience, and then decide for themselves. I have no delusion that this will change anyone's mind, but still, had to say it.
Wednesday, March 18, 2009
To Fitz and the People at Opine editorials
I've read all responses there. The opinion there is too dogmatically closed-minded to be worth discussing any further. Forgive me if I feel it not worth the effort to post there, but I don't wish to give the impression that I enjoy talking to walls. You have all decided that your definition of marriage is the only one worth pursuing despite many different traditions of marriage throughout history.
There have been legitimate polygamous (polyandry in the Himalayas) in relationships that had to do with property rights. There are legitimate historical marriages that are political, as in medieval/renaissance Europe, the Roman Republic/Empire, various middle east tradition. In Heiyan Japan, the promiscuity among the courts both married and not was not only accepted, but expected. Shit, Egyptian nobility, Pharaohs in particular would marry siblings as a matter of course. While i wouldn't advocate that for reasons of genetic disease, it is a fact.
Marriage must evolve with the society. If you want to post this over there, be my guest, but I won't take part in further discussion there. This "one man one woman" garbage, with all your arguments is a weak facade lacking in any real historical impetus to cover up one fact. You are afraid of change and are personally disgusted by homosexuality. Of course, you'll deny your homophobia, but your kind always do.
edit: To those who accuse me of not arguing in good faith, I suggest looking at your own arguments from the other side and realizing how ridiculous and hatemongering they sound if you want to be taken seriously. As for the person who used the old "I won't answer your question until you acknowledge my point" remember that the burden of proof is on you to prove your lame analogy, not me. If you can't demonstrate how on an individual level same sex marriage will damage someone's benefits of marriage on a personal level, your analogy fails. Completely.
There have been legitimate polygamous (polyandry in the Himalayas) in relationships that had to do with property rights. There are legitimate historical marriages that are political, as in medieval/renaissance Europe, the Roman Republic/Empire, various middle east tradition. In Heiyan Japan, the promiscuity among the courts both married and not was not only accepted, but expected. Shit, Egyptian nobility, Pharaohs in particular would marry siblings as a matter of course. While i wouldn't advocate that for reasons of genetic disease, it is a fact.
Marriage must evolve with the society. If you want to post this over there, be my guest, but I won't take part in further discussion there. This "one man one woman" garbage, with all your arguments is a weak facade lacking in any real historical impetus to cover up one fact. You are afraid of change and are personally disgusted by homosexuality. Of course, you'll deny your homophobia, but your kind always do.
edit: To those who accuse me of not arguing in good faith, I suggest looking at your own arguments from the other side and realizing how ridiculous and hatemongering they sound if you want to be taken seriously. As for the person who used the old "I won't answer your question until you acknowledge my point" remember that the burden of proof is on you to prove your lame analogy, not me. If you can't demonstrate how on an individual level same sex marriage will damage someone's benefits of marriage on a personal level, your analogy fails. Completely.
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